An Evangelical Rethink on Divorce...

[Walt Gee 082543]

Hi !
Gordon I think that the verses you are looking for are as follows. They are from e-Sword and are annotated with strongs numbers for cheaters. While they are generally okay to get the gist of the original, they can sometimes lead one astray. One of the major problems with Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek is that a lot of times you must get the true meaning from context. I can read Hebrew and Greek a little but I'm a Kindygartener in Hebrew and maybea second grader in Greek especially Attic Greek of the Old Testament. Anyways here goes:

Deu 23:2 A bastard4464 shall not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD;3068 even1571 to his tenth6224 generation1755 shall he not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD.3068
Deu 23:3 An Ammonite5984 or Moabite4125 shall not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD;3068 even1571 to their tenth6224 generation1755 shall they not3808 enter935 into the congregation6951 of the LORD3068 forever:5704, 5769

[bunkie]

that's a nice avatar walt!

[Walt Gee 082543]

Thank you Bunkie!

A Jewish lady came by one day and asked me one day after dumping her trash if she could take my picture. I said sure and she took about six or seven. A few weeks later she brought me a huge print.

People up here in the foothills of the Smokies are some of the most wonderful folks I have ever met.

[winter_unfazed]

Originally Posted by LarryS

In the OT, homosexual men would have been put to death (Leviticus) and
the question of marriage would not even be an issue. Oddly, homosexuality in women is not dealt with in any great detail.

It has taken me a long time to accept that true homosexuality is probably born into the individual, and he or she has no choice in the matter. They may have a choice in whether they choose to be sexually active, but not
in their basic sexuality.

There is a group, I am sure, which has had some sort of homosexual experience - for curiosity or whatever - but who are not innate homosexuals.

Homosexuality in women is mentioned, but not until the New Testament.

Sexual behavior is a choice. They didn't choose to have certain tendencies/attractions, but they can choose to act upon or not to act upon them.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by winter_unfazed

Homosexuality in women is mentioned, but not until the New Testament.

Sexual behavior is a choice. They didn't choose to have certain tendencies/attractions, but they can choose to act upon or not to act upon them.

Sexual orientation is probably not at all a choice, but - I agree - sexual behavior IS.

[Walt Gee 082543]

Sorry to disagree with you all but the clear message refers to us as a species. I have copied the pertinent Scripture and included commentary by the highly noted and accepted authorities regarding the Jewish Testament, Messrs Keil and Delitzsch.

I have also included a noted 18th Cent. writer by the name of John Gill.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not3808 lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as with4904 womankind:802 it1931 is abomination.8441
Lev 18:23 Neither3808 shalt thou lie5414, 7903 with any3605 beast929 to defile2930 thyself therewith: neither3808 shall any woman802 stand5975 before6440 a beast929 to lie down7250 thereto: it1931 is confusion.8397
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves2930, 408 in any3605 of these things:428 for3588 in all3605 these428 the nations1471 are defiled2930 which834 I589 cast out7971 before4480, 6440 you:

Keil and Delitzsch
Lev 18:19-23 -
Prohibition of other kinds of unchastity and of unnatural crimes. - Lev_18:19 prohibits intercourse with a woman during her uncleanness. טמאה נדּת signifies the uncleanness of a woman's hemorrhage, whether menstruation or after childbirth, which is called in Lev_12:7; Lev_20:18, the fountain of bleeding. The guilty persons were both of them to be cut off from their nation according to Lev_20:18, i.e., to be punished with death.
Lev_18:20
“To a neighbour's wife thou shalt not give שׁכבתּך thy pouring as seed” (i.e., make her pregnant), “to defile thyself with her,” viz., by the emissio seminis (Lev_15:16-17), a defilement which was to be punished as adultery by the stoning to death of both parties (Lev_20:10; Deu_22:22, cf. Joh_9:5).
Lev_18:21
To bodily unchastity there is appended a prohibition of spiritual whoredom. “Thou shalt not give of thy seed to cause to pass through (sc., the fire; Deu_18:10) for Moloch.” המּלך is constantly written with the article: it is rendered by the lxx ἄρχων both here and in Lev_20:2., but ὁ Μολόχ βασιλεύς in other places (2Ki_23:10; Jer_32:35). Moloch was an old Canaanitish idol, called by the Phoenicians and Carthaginians Melkarth, Baal-melech, Malcom, and other such names, and related to Baal, a sun-god worshipped, like Kronos and Saturn, by the sacrifice of children. It was represented by a brazen statue, which was hollow and capable of being heated, and formed with a bull's head, and arms stretched out to receive the children to be sacrificed. From the time of Ahaz children were slain at Jerusalem in the valley of Ben-hinnom, and then sacrificed by being laid in the heated arms and burned (Eze_16:20-21; Eze_20:31; Jer_32:35; 2Ki_23:10; 2Ki_16:3; 2Ki_17:17; 2Ki_21:6, cf. Psa_106:37-38). Now although this offering of children in the valley of Ben-hinnom is called a “slaughtering” by Ezekiel (Eze_16:21), and a “burning through (in the) fire” by Jeremiah (Jer_7:31), and although, in the times of the later kings, children were actually given up to Moloch and burned as slain-offerings, even among the Israelites; it by no means follows from this, that “passing through to Moloch,” or “passing through the fire,” or “passing through the fire to Moloch” (2Ki_23:10), signified slaughtering and burning with fire, though this has been almost unanimously assumed since the time of Clericus. But according to the unanimous explanation of the Rabbins, fathers, and earlier theologians, “causing to pass through the fire” denoted primarily going through the fire without burning, a februation, or purification through fire, by which the children were consecrated to Moloch; a kind of fire-baptism, which preceded the sacrificing, and was performed, particularly in olden time, without actual sacrificing, or slaying and burning. For februation was practised among the most different nations without being connected with human sacrifices; and, like most of the idolatrous rites of the heathen, no doubt the worship of Moloch assumed different forms at different times and among different nations. If the Israelites had really sacrificed their children to Moloch, i.e., had slain and burned them, before the time of Ahaz, the burning would certainly have been mentioned before; for Solomon had built a high place upon the mountain to the east of Jerusalem for Moloch, the abomination of the children of Ammon, to please his foreign wives (1Ki_11:7 : see the Art. Moloch in Herzog's Cycl.). This idolatrous worship was to be punished with death by stoning, as a desecration of the name of Jehovah, and a defiling of His sanctuary (Lev_20:3), i.e., as a practical contempt of the manifestations of the grace of the living God (Lev_20:2-3).
Lev_18:22-23
Lastly, it was forbidden to “lie with mankind as with womankind,” i.e., to commit the crime of paederastia, that sin of Sodom (Gen_19:5), to which the whole of the heathen were more or less addicted (Rom_1:27), and from which even the Israelites did not keep themselves free (Jdg_19:22.); or to “lie with any beast.” “Into no beast shalt thou give thine emission of seed,...and a woman shall not place herself before a beast to lie down thereto.” רבע = רבץ “to lie,” is the term used particularly to denote a crime of this description (Lev_20:13 and Lev_20:15, Lev_20:16, cf. Exo_22:18). Lying with animals was connected in Egypt with the worship of the goat; at Mendes especially, where the women lay down before he-goats (Herodotus, 2, 46; Strabo, 17, p. 802). Aelian (nat. an. vii. 19) relates an account of the crime being also committed with a dog in Rome; and according to Sonnini, R. 11, p. 330, in modern Egypt men are said to lie even with female crocodiles.


Dr. John Gill
Lev 18:22 - Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind,.... By carnal knowledge of them, and carnal copulation with them, and mixing bodies in like manner: this is the sin commonly called sodomy, from the inhabitants of Sodom, greatly addicted to it, for which their city was destroyed by fire: those that are guilty of this sin, are, by the apostle, called "abusers of themselves with mankind", 1Co_6:9,

it is abomination; it is so to God, as the above instance of his vengeance shows, and ought to be abominable to men, as being not only contrary to the law of God, but even contrary to nature itself, and what is never to be observed among brute creatures.

[sammyqc]

Actually, if you do a little search, you will find that homosexual behavior has been observed in a wide variety of species. So I don't buy that "contrary to nature" stuff or that it is all that abnormal.

[Cliff Timmons]

Originally Posted by Walt Gee 082543

Sorry to disagree with you all but the clear message refers to us as a species. I have copied the pertinent Scripture and included commentary by the highly noted and accepted authorities regarding the Jewish Testament, Messrs Keil and Delitzsch.

I have also included a noted 18th Cent. writer by the name of John Gill.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not3808 lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as with4904 womankind:802 it1931 is abomination.8441
Lev 18:23 Neither3808 shalt thou lie5414, 7903 with any3605 beast929 to defile2930 thyself therewith: neither3808 shall any woman802 stand5975 before6440 a beast929 to lie down7250 thereto: it1931 is confusion.8397
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves2930, 408 in any3605 of these things:428 for3588 in all3605 these428 the nations1471 are defiled2930 which834 I589 cast out7971 before4480, 6440 you:

Keil and Delitzsch
Lev 18:19-23 -
Prohibition of other kinds of unchastity and of unnatural crimes. - Lev_18:19 prohibits intercourse with a woman during her uncleanness. טמאה נדּת signifies the uncleanness of a woman's hemorrhage, whether menstruation or after childbirth, which is called in Lev_12:7; Lev_20:18, the fountain of bleeding. The guilty persons were both of them to be cut off from their nation according to Lev_20:18, i.e., to be punished with death.
Lev_18:20
“To a neighbour's wife thou shalt not give שׁכבתּך thy pouring as seed” (i.e., make her pregnant), “to defile thyself with her,” viz., by the emissio seminis (Lev_15:16-17), a defilement which was to be punished as adultery by the stoning to death of both parties (Lev_20:10; Deu_22:22, cf. Joh_9:5).
Lev_18:21
To bodily unchastity there is appended a prohibition of spiritual whoredom. “Thou shalt not give of thy seed to cause to pass through (sc., the fire; Deu_18:10) for Moloch.” המּלך is constantly written with the article: it is rendered by the lxx ἄρχων both here and in Lev_20:2., but ὁ Μολόχ βασιλεύς in other places (2Ki_23:10; Jer_32:35). Moloch was an old Canaanitish idol, called by the Phoenicians and Carthaginians Melkarth, Baal-melech, Malcom, and other such names, and related to Baal, a sun-god worshipped, like Kronos and Saturn, by the sacrifice of children. It was represented by a brazen statue, which was hollow and capable of being heated, and formed with a bull's head, and arms stretched out to receive the children to be sacrificed. From the time of Ahaz children were slain at Jerusalem in the valley of Ben-hinnom, and then sacrificed by being laid in the heated arms and burned (Eze_16:20-21; Eze_20:31; Jer_32:35; 2Ki_23:10; 2Ki_16:3; 2Ki_17:17; 2Ki_21:6, cf. Psa_106:37-38). Now although this offering of children in the valley of Ben-hinnom is called a “slaughtering” by Ezekiel (Eze_16:21), and a “burning through (in the) fire” by Jeremiah (Jer_7:31), and although, in the times of the later kings, children were actually given up to Moloch and burned as slain-offerings, even among the Israelites; it by no means follows from this, that “passing through to Moloch,” or “passing through the fire,” or “passing through the fire to Moloch” (2Ki_23:10), signified slaughtering and burning with fire, though this has been almost unanimously assumed since the time of Clericus. But according to the unanimous explanation of the Rabbins, fathers, and earlier theologians, “causing to pass through the fire” denoted primarily going through the fire without burning, a februation, or purification through fire, by which the children were consecrated to Moloch; a kind of fire-baptism, which preceded the sacrificing, and was performed, particularly in olden time, without actual sacrificing, or slaying and burning. For februation was practised among the most different nations without being connected with human sacrifices; and, like most of the idolatrous rites of the heathen, no doubt the worship of Moloch assumed different forms at different times and among different nations. If the Israelites had really sacrificed their children to Moloch, i.e., had slain and burned them, before the time of Ahaz, the burning would certainly have been mentioned before; for Solomon had built a high place upon the mountain to the east of Jerusalem for Moloch, the abomination of the children of Ammon, to please his foreign wives (1Ki_11:7 : see the Art. Moloch in Herzog's Cycl.). This idolatrous worship was to be punished with death by stoning, as a desecration of the name of Jehovah, and a defiling of His sanctuary (Lev_20:3), i.e., as a practical contempt of the manifestations of the grace of the living God (Lev_20:2-3).
Lev_18:22-23
Lastly, it was forbidden to “lie with mankind as with womankind,” i.e., to commit the crime of paederastia, that sin of Sodom (Gen_19:5), to which the whole of the heathen were more or less addicted (Rom_1:27), and from which even the Israelites did not keep themselves free (Jdg_19:22.); or to “lie with any beast.” “Into no beast shalt thou give thine emission of seed,...and a woman shall not place herself before a beast to lie down thereto.” רבע = רבץ “to lie,” is the term used particularly to denote a crime of this description (Lev_20:13 and Lev_20:15, Lev_20:16, cf. Exo_22:18). Lying with animals was connected in Egypt with the worship of the goat; at Mendes especially, where the women lay down before he-goats (Herodotus, 2, 46; Strabo, 17, p. 802). Aelian (nat. an. vii. 19) relates an account of the crime being also committed with a dog in Rome; and according to Sonnini, R. 11, p. 330, in modern Egypt men are said to lie even with female crocodiles.


Dr. John Gill
Lev 18:22 - Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind,.... By carnal knowledge of them, and carnal copulation with them, and mixing bodies in like manner: this is the sin commonly called sodomy, from the inhabitants of Sodom, greatly addicted to it, for which their city was destroyed by fire: those that are guilty of this sin, are, by the apostle, called "abusers of themselves with mankind", 1Co_6:9,

it is abomination; it is so to God, as the above instance of his vengeance shows, and ought to be abominable to men, as being not only contrary to the law of God, but even contrary to nature itself, and what is never to be observed among brute creatures.

Is that all you got? <grin>

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by sammyqc

Actually, if you do a little search, you will find that homosexual behavior has been observed in a wide variety of species. So I don't buy that "contrary to nature" stuff or that it is all that abnormal.

Indeed, acts which we would construe as homosexual have been observed
in many species...It is seen in nature, therefore not unnatural.

For humans, it is not the norm, therefore abnormal.

We have to be very careful with our wordings and interpretations. Many
of us have similar beliefs..we just have semantic issues with our expression of those beliefs.

[sammyqc]

Last time is a charm?