new OP vs old heirlooms

[garnede]

I feel that a breed of OP veggies should have an established history before becoming a heirloom. But I don't feel that a specific age would make something an heirloom.

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

I'm with Earl and BlueRibbon on this one. The term "heirloom" should be restricted to varieties that have actually been passed down through a family in particular, or at least generally passed down over a period of years equaling a generation or more if from an elderly person to a dear friend in a younger generation.

As far as standard, open pollinated varieties that had a commercial origin, I think of many of the older ones as heritage varieties ... passed down in a general manner between commercial sources, individual gardeners, or other less personal means of exchange.

Problem is, many older "heritage" commercial cultivars are the daggone identical varieties that now carry another given name by someone who passed them down as family "heirlooms" :::smile::::


GGG

[Little Minnie]

I am really surprised at the responses! You know with that recent first heirloom expo they had old heirloom and new OPs but they were all at the heirloom show and I felt kind of funny in thinking that there should be clarification. Baker Creek's catalog of course, also has new OP, mixed in with the old heirlooms. Should they be separated? I don't care actually. I guess with most of the new OPs they have been bred from old heirlooms so does that automatically put them in the heirloom collection? What about mutations or strains of an heirloom?

Honestly I didn't vote in my own poll. I just need more input in making my decision on categorizing and naming this subject.

[GennyL]

I've asked this before and still am not clear but it may go towards your thinking.
If someone gave me OPs and I kept planting from seed wouldn't that plant revert back to the original heirloom?

[Tom C]

The seeds man does not have to tell you his seed is open pollinated. (s)He is entitled to make patent or copyright claims to it. Though hybrid vigor is the usual claim inherent claim to F1 hybrid seed.

There is virtually nothing to 'prove' an hierloom is (or was ever) anything. Now in informal exchanges between us, 'hierloom', plus a descriptor, a-n-d perhaps a familial history give good balast to our exchange, plus our ongoing discourse, lends a good provinance to that exchange.

I for one have made too many exchanges in receipt of stuff that while it might be a fine tomato-- a U of Arkansaw traveler tomato, its got another thirty years to run on the clock before it becomes an hierloom anything. It can have two traincar loads of merde shoveled on and its still only an OP tomato.

Smoke that funny stuff, on your own time. Leave off the pixie dust on my tomatoes.

[Blanesgarden]

I dont understand why Arkansas Traverler isn't an Heirloom now?
Who wrote the 50 year law?
They sell AT's at the farmers markets around here, and have for many years.
Not sure the exact number, but it comes back true everytime for me.

We need this debate, never have enough on it, do we?
Good reads yall.

[TXDirtDog]

I prefer the term OP also.

Like Zinniagirl, I think Heirloom has become too much of a marketing buzzword. Fine if you are selling seeds or tomatoes or even plants to the general public, but if you are talking nuts and bolts gardening, growouts, crossing, etc.; well then I prefer OP since there is such a potential for getting into the discussion we are having right now that it usually takes away from the nuts and bolts discussion.

This doesn't mean I don't have my own view of what (in the deep, dark, dusty, dilapidated recesses of my mind) makes an heirloom.

[WinterSown]

Plants of all sorts are growable from seed whether they are hybrid or heirloom. And, because there are no restrictions on crossing maybe we could call the progeny OSH--Open Source Hybrids.

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

Originally Posted by Little Minnie

Baker Creek's catalog of course, also has new OP, mixed in with the old heirlooms. Should they be separated?

I guess with most of the new OPs they have been bred from old heirlooms so does that automatically put them in the heirloom collection?

What about mutations or strains of an heirloom?

You know, LM, "heirloom" has been used to market so many open pollinated varieties that aren't really heirlooms that I don't think you can change or arrest the trend at this point in time, doncha know.

I think it would be best if anyone distributing seeds would clearly and ACCURATELY reveal the source, history, and chain of transfer of the variety so that those who grow the variety can in turn pass the information along to the next person. Then let individuals decide what ranks as "heirloom" and what is just another open pollinated variety.

Should they be separated into different categories, on different pages, segregated into "heirloom" and "open pollinated?" I assume you mean in the Baker Creek catalog. I say no. After all, Baker Creek only sells open pollinated. Good enough. Besides, Baker Creek just got it down to where the varieties are listed in alphabetic order. Don't get them confused now! :::smile:::

Yes, some people say that the older standard commercial types should be put into the "commercial heirloom" category because they are the result of "heirloom" x "heirloom" hybridizing. I say balony. Ooops, I mean I say they are older commercial standard varieties intended for field and garden growing, and that they only become "heirlooms" by the same standards as jewelry, bibles, quilts, etc. become heirlooms. But then everyone has their own opinions.

Mutations and strains of true heirloom varieties are heirlooms in and of themselves when they meet the same criteria as an heirloom variety ... handed down with love from one generation to another.


GGG

[treeguy]

After a tomato stabilizes that is comes back true from seed
i think it shoul be a heirloom
so about ten years