Bt insecticide

[Zephyrbird5a-6]

Originally Posted by Mulligan Man

The more claims you make the more outlandish they get.

That particular claim, while "giant" being certainly an exaggeration, has truth in it. At the advent of STS back in the 90s, the company knew full well there would be weeds resistant to the herbicide applications. We called them...."super weeds" back then. It may have only been .001% of the population of weeds in any given field, but eventually they would spread and begin to flourish.

Even back then plans were being made to develop crops that would withstand even higher applications of herbicide.

So no, that particular claim is not outlandish unless one wants to claim they are 50 feet high.......

[blindrummer]

ok so if the article is not true and the science not accurate, than lets set up another test.

[Mulligan Man]

Originally Posted by Zephyrbird5a-6

That particular claim, while "giant" being certainly an exaggeration, has truth in it. At the advent of STS back in the 90s, the company knew full well there would be weeds resistant to the herbicide applications. We called them...."super weeds" back then. It may have only been .001% of the population of weeds in any given field, but eventually they would spread and begin to flourish.

Even back then plans were being made to develop crops that would withstand even higher applications of herbicide.

So no, that particular claim is not outlandish unless one wants to claim they are 50 feet high.......

Even if a weed becomes tolerant of a certain herbicide it doesn't make it ineradicable with other herbicide.

Why not point out one of these ineradicable weeds?

[Ohiorganic]

To get back on topic (super weeds have zero to do with Bt crops)

the Bt in the GMO crops is quite different as it has fewer genes than the natural soil born bacteria and unlike the naturally derived Bt the GMO Bt is expressed in every cell of the plant and does not break down in under 18 hours when exposed to sunlight. Those two things are huge differences and why we don't see insects becoming resistant to naturally derived Bt but we are seeing the beginnings of resistance to Bt crops, due to the persistence of GMO Bt in the environment for months and not hours.

[fugacity]

Originally Posted by Ohiorganic

To get back on topic (super weeds have zero to do with Bt crops)

the Bt in the GMO crops is quite different as it has fewer genes than the natural soil born bacteria and unlike the naturally derived Bt the GMO Bt is expressed in every cell of the plant and does not break down in under 18 hours when exposed to sunlight. Those two things are huge differences and why we don't see insects becoming resistant to naturally derived Bt but we are seeing the beginnings of resistance to Bt crops, due to the persistence of GMO Bt in the environment for months and not hours.

"...get back to topic"????

When was insect resistance or superweeds the topic? The topic is bioaccumulation in humans through the food chain and potential health concerns if found to be correct. Feel free to start a thread regarding superweeds or resistant insects, or feel free to discuss the topic at hand.

[Ohiorganic]

Originally Posted by fugacity

"...get back to topic"????

When was insect resistance or superweeds the topic? The topic is bioaccumulation in humans through the food chain and potential health concerns if found to be correct. Feel free to start a thread regarding superweeds or resistant insects, or feel free to discuss the topic at hand.

From the OP

Clearly, the toxin is harmful both to pests and to humans. Earlier studies have already shown that Bt toxin and other pesticides end up contaminating and persisting in the environment, which makes it a major public health concern.

Seems like bioaccumulation and persistence in the environment are a part of the OP. and my comment about persistence in about bioaccumulation in the environment. and let me say more. it has been noticed that Bt corn does not break down in the fields nearly as quickly as nonGMO Bt corn. This means the Bt is sticking around and critters are likely eating it and yes, this does eventually become a problem with us humans who are at the top of the the food chain and eat what I will refer to as "enhanced GMO Bt" because as we know when toxins go up the food chain they tend to get ever more concentrated as they go from one organism to another up the food chain. So what might be 1 part per billion in something low on the food chain like a bacteria that eats some Bt corn could be 1 part per 100K by the time it gets to a Human (top of the food chain). And of course we re eating the BT corn as well, though that probably doesn't have as intense effect as what we get from eating things that have eaten things that have eaten the Bt corn.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Ohiorganic

From the OP


Seems like bioaccumulation and persistence in the environment are a part of the OP. and my comment about persistence in about bioaccumulation in the environment. and let me say more. it has been noticed that Bt corn does not break down in the fields nearly as quickly as nonGMO Bt corn. This means the Bt is sticking around and critters are likely eating it and yes, this does eventually become a problem with us humans who are at the top of the the food chain and eat what I will refer to as "enhanced GMO Bt" because as we know when toxins go up the food chain they tend to get ever more concentrated as they go from one organism to another up the food chain. So what might be 1 part per billion in something low on the food chain like a bacteria that eats some Bt corn could be 1 part per 100K by the time it gets to a Human (top of the food chain). And of course we re eating the BT corn as well, though that probably doesn't have as intense effect as what we get from eating things that have eaten things that have eaten the Bt corn.

Why would anyone want corn to "break down in the fields"?

Are you talking about the corn kernels, stalks, the stubble or what?

[fugacity]

Originally Posted by Ohiorganic

From the OP


Seems like bioaccumulation and persistence in the environment are a part of the OP. and my comment about persistence in about bioaccumulation in the environment. and let me say more. it has been noticed that Bt corn does not break down in the fields nearly as quickly as nonGMO Bt corn. This means the Bt is sticking around and critters are likely eating it and yes, this does eventually become a problem with us humans who are at the top of the the food chain and eat what I will refer to as "enhanced GMO Bt" because as we know when toxins go up the food chain they tend to get ever more concentrated as they go from one organism to another up the food chain. So what might be 1 part per billion in something low on the food chain like a bacteria that eats some Bt corn could be 1 part per 100K by the time it gets to a Human (top of the food chain). And of course we re eating the BT corn as well, though that probably doesn't have as intense effect as what we get from eating things that have eaten things that have eaten the Bt corn.

That bioaccumulation argument does not make sense. There should actaully be diminishing returns, not a concentration effect. The concentration effect assumes it is not digested or excreted and actaully passes from digestive to meat (since humans tend to eat only meat.) If you're taling about fish and mercury then it's a good argument. With humans eating beef eating bt corn it is not necessaraily.

[fugacity]

Originally Posted by Imp

Why would anyone want corn to "break down in the fields"?

Are you talking about the corn kernels, stalks, the stubble or what?

I agree, I'd have to see why. The microbial (composting) breakdown shouldn't be affected by bt presence.

[Ohiorganic]

Originally Posted by fugacity

I agree, I'd have to see why. The microbial (composting) breakdown shouldn't be affected by bt presence.

the breakdown is slowed http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/agronomyfacpub/131/

And why shouldn't it be slowed if you have this altered bacterium in the corn residue doing who knows what (because, gee whizz, Monsanto didn't study this aspect of their product before going commercial with it). It actually makes a lot of sense that the altered Bt could be inhibiting the microbial activity of the soil.

there is so much that we do not know about Bt corn, and other GMO's and theirt effect on various life forms.

and the concept I was referring to is called biomagnification and it magnifies toxins as they go up the food chain. I learned about this in High school and again in 100 level college bio classes, i am surprised you do not know about this Fugacity.